I think Hasbro chooses their core characters by appearance and position. I mean if you think about it, the joe figures that receive the most variants or recongitions are:
Duke
Cobra Commander
Snake Eyes
Storm Shadow
Destro
Baroness
Scarlett
Heavy Duty/Roadblock
Duke and cobra commander are the main character and main villian while Storm Shadow and Snake eyes are the first ninjas in their teams for the longest time. Scarlett and the Barones are the first females in their team while Roadblock (if copyright is a problem, Heavyduty) is the token black guy. Destro because he has a cool mask.
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But are Shockwave, Falcon and Beach Head core characters? Are they recognizable enough?
Nope, because they are not iconic enough in a visual sense. Characters like Duke, COBRA COMMANDER, Destro, Snake-Eyes, and probably Storm Shadow are the core iconic characters for GIJOE, everyone else is pretty much secondary and supporting of them. Some characters lend themselves to a bit more re-use because they fill the supporting role better--like Roadblock, Gung-ho, Zartan, BATs etc. and they tend to be visually interesting.
They are less recognizable on their own, and could not carry a wave with them head-lining simply because they are not the stars of the show, so to speak.
Adding in another version of the truly iconic core characters into such a wave makes sense in that respect.
Hasbro pushes certain characters, like Heavy-Duty, because they want more variety within the line, and re-using a character like that is "continuous" for them--in that it provides accessible "stepping-on points" with certain characters. Heavy Duty, for lack of any better description, comes across as the token black character for some reason. For whatever reason, his name ( and persona) seems to be a better choice than Stalker or Roadblock, or even Alpine--probably because "Heavy Duty" implies a stronger character than, say, Roadblock. Heavy-Duty is NOT a core character though--he just gets used a lot.
Snake-Eyes, has transcended his one handle and become iconic by virtue of being the constant "man of mystery" all be-decked in black. He'd never would in a civilian Snake-Eyes design because that breaks the one big appealing thing about him. He works best as a mysterious figure.
All the other characters are spotlight characters.........they have their time in the light, and then the light moves onto someone else. Lt. Falcon is a good example of that........Sgt. Slaughter is sort of between iconic and a spotlight character--mostly because he's been used sparingly. All the rest.........well, it depends who is getting pushed at the time.
For me, certain characters like Hit & Run, and Big Ben spell out "GIJOE" to me. They were the kinds of characters that went a bit further afield in styling, and were more interesting to me. I liked Shockwave too, and Rampart, Repeater etc......but none of them is what I would consider to be iconic in a general sense.
Part of what makes a character a "core" character is the recognizability of said character. Certain characters are recognizable as "belonging" to the line in question. In this case, the three most recognizable are Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow and Cobra Commander. But does that mean we have to see them EVERY wave? Are there not ANY other characters that would fit the category? Heavy Duty, Hawk, Destro and B.A.T. come to mind easily.It almost seems as if Hasbro somewhat arbitrarily chose those characters as the "core characters" of GI Joe. I mean, what's that based on anyway? A (let's face it) rather obscure comic book and a failed TV series (Sigma Six)?
If you look at the old cartoon Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow weren't in it any more than any other character. Are they actually that recognizable to kids (the usual argument) or are they just basing this on the fact that they're fan favourites?
The brand name, first and foremost, has always been THE recognizable factor for GI Joe, for what, over fifty years now? As much as we'd like to think that Cobra Commander and Snake Eyes are household names, they aren't - GI Joe is. Not Duke, not Cobra, not even "A Real American Hero". I think that Hasbro is overestimating the appeal of certain characters, personally. I can see having Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow readily available in future waves, but they don't have to have as many versions as they've had.
Well, consider this. For awhile, near the end of the Marvel run, it went from just G.I. Joe to G.I. Joe starring Snake Eyes.
I don't think it is so much that Hasbro is overestimating the appeal of certain characters. You mentioned Snake Eyes being a "fan favorite". How did he get that way? And, if he was a fan favorite for the RAH generation, why wouldn't the possiblity exist of him being a fan favorite of the new generation of fans? Throw in the fact that, because of his RAH favorite status, the next generation would pick up on that FROM the older generation.
There is a larger chance the new fans "learned" from the older ones rather than "on their own".
It makes you wonder, like you said, HOW do they decide who the core characters are?
Should we look towards the movie? I sure as hell don't see Rip Cord as a core character. Why did they choose HIM (ignoring the whole Wayans issue entirely)?
But when you think G.I. Joe, MOST people think G.I. Joe vs Cobra and they think action figures/characters. And WHICH characters first come to mind? Which characters "represent" G.I. Joe?
One thing I see is that Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow represent an aspect of G.I. Joe that has been driven into the ground. Ninjas were popularized in the late 80s and 90s (Ninja Turtles and Power Rangers).
Another interesting aspect is the focus of the line itself. It is a line geared towards collectors (ie. more towards older RAH fans; Hence the "classic" looks (and Major Bludd )) but working towards gaining new fans too (hence the multiple figures).
But what made a "core" character back in RAH was different from what we see today (and that, primarily, by necessity). RAH had 500 figures (and near as many characters) to choose from because they COULD have that many.
I have certain favorites, like Shockwave, Falcon and Beach Head, for example. I could see them as "core" characters. And I think a significant majority would include Snake Eyes (of course which VERSION is debatable, but version 2 would be high on the list). But there are/were enough characters to make that possible.
But are Shockwave, Falcon and Beach Head core characters? Are they recognizable enough?
Part of what makes a character a "core" character is the recognizability of said character. Certain characters are recognizable as "belonging" to the line in question. In this case, the three most recognizable are Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow and Cobra Commander. But does that mean we have to see them EVERY wave? Are there not ANY other characters that would fit the category? Heavy Duty, Hawk, Destro and B.A.T. come to mind easily.
It almost seems as if Hasbro somewhat arbitrarily chose those characters as the "core characters" of GI Joe. I mean, what's that based on anyway? A (let's face it) rather obscure comic book and a failed TV series (Sigma Six)?
If you look at the old cartoon Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow weren't in it any more than any other character. Are they actually that recognizable to kids (the usual argument) or are they just basing this on the fact that they're fan favourites?
The brand name, first and foremost, has always been THE recognizable factor for GI Joe, for what, over fifty years now? As much as we'd like to think that Cobra Commander and Snake Eyes are household names, they aren't - GI Joe is. Not Duke, not Cobra, not even "A Real American Hero". I think that Hasbro is overestimating the appeal of certain characters, personally. I can see having Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow readily available in future waves, but they don't have to have as many versions as they've had.
As for myself who watched gi joe in preschool and had brothers who owned a few Rah figs, I would considered myself as an old fan especially how I seen the cartoon religiously as a child.
However, I have really started collecting the line with GVC came out and I remember when I first started posting here, I was indirectly called "A transformers fan pretending to be a Gi joe fan" by someone who stil probablyl goes to the boards (but hasn't posted in this thread.) True, I had a TF name at the time, but it was a bit insulting since the poster knows nothing about myself and how I grew up with the RAH cartoons, yet branded me as a person who pretended to like joes?
However, things on tni has been better since and I don't see any new fans get insulted or bashed by an older fanfor like a new Storm Shadow, Snake Eyes or duke variant.
True there are some old fans here who prefer the old figures over the new ones, but they don't insult other ppl's opinions whether or not if somebody makes a thread like "I like snake eyes sigma 6." I mean, I would see some old fans say something like "That is cool you like it, but for some reason I don't like it because the legs are off." However, sometimes those comments would accidently cause the other person to attack the person who doesn't like the product as if their ego is hurt. sadly, that is how attacks starts even if the person who didn't like the figure didn't mean any bad for stating his/her opinions.
I think, for a lot of people, there are only so many "slots" available for this line to keep seeing the same characters multiple times.Which I feel is a misconception about toylines in general around here. From what I've gathered from the Star Wars brand over the years is that Hasbro always designs waves with at least one or two central characters at all times. So we were ALWAYS going to end up with Duke, or Snake Eyes, or Cobra Commander, or Storm Shadow, or Destro, or even Wild Bill in these waves (although I'm glad to see Hasbro seems to consider Flint, Cobra, Firefly, and Roablock as part of their core contingent now).
But is that really a valid comparison? Star Wars is MUCH bigger than G.I. Joe. I think it is quite possible that we will see larger Joe playsets if that giant Millenium Falcon sells, but not the other way around. That is a large Joe playset wouldn't prompt Star Wars once to be produced.
If you insist on comparing to Star Wars, look how many "niche" characters we have seen. I may be mistkaken, but I'm fairly certain that you could do the entire Mos Isley cantina seen from Star Wars now. And whatI mean by that is we have seen EVERY creature, including the ones that had nano-seconds of screen time, done as a figure. And that's just but one example. Also all the "fan's choice" (yeah, right) figures all over the place.
Look at all the choices, all the figures from limited presentation that have been made into figures. That Dark Woman & A'Sharad Hett comic pack, for example. There are tons of niche characters, INCLUDING the "core" ones.
What have we seen? That arctic Snake Eyes in the last wave? Jet Pack Duke? Nemesis Enforcer?
Part of what makes a character a "core" character is the recognizability of said character. Certain characters are recognizable as "belonging" to the line in question. In this case, the three most recognizable are Snake Eyes, Storm Shadow and Cobra Commander. But does that mean we have to see them EVERY wave? Are there not ANY other characters that would fit the category? Heavy Duty, Hawk, Destro and B.A.T. come to mind easily.
THOSE characters I took from Sigma Six. And I that is the general question the OP had for this thread. Are we old geezers for complaining about about seeing the "core" characters all the time? In a way, we are. But you really have to define the term, considering all the circumstances. As I said previously, the B.A.T. is a good "core character" candidate. It has appeared in every incarnation of G.I. Joe since the relaunch, featuring heavily so that the Joes have "something to kill". That gives "older fans" a popular character AND "newer fans" a recognizable one....one that can be army built by both groups.
Part of it is the fact the line has always had the "aura of finality" about it, even after they decided to expand beyond the first 25. Things were progressing but, quickly, we got the rumors and official announcement of the movie. And, of course,the associated movie line.
It is NOT unreasonable to believe the line has a limited lifespan and a limited number of "slots". No line lasts forever. And I don't think people are complaining (ok,yeah they are) about seeing the "core characters" all the time, more that they choice of core character leaves much to be desired.
Why not Scarlett or Baroness? I understand the reluctance. But, to use the the Star Wars example, they included SEVERAL female characters/figures. Are they new molds? I'd have to imagine to some degree. And that even includes "army builder" type characters (even if said figures are considered individuals). That Diver Baroness could work like that. Why not female blueshirts or Viper classes?
The line IS geared towards collectors. The fact it appeals towards younger fans is a bonus, in part. They want new fans to increase the customer base. Hence the need for core characters. The question, I think is WHICH characters?
I consider myself an "old fan". I've been a fan of GI Joe since it started, the toys, the comics, the cartoon, and I still am. I don't really like the new Mjr. Bludd, but then again, I don't really care. So what? There are 40 other 25th figs that I think are great! To me, this line is a gift. Hasbro could "drop the ball" on 10 other figures and I still would not complain. Much.
As far as new fans vs. old fans......I like everyone
Well said hoganvibe and welcome to the board.
Hi there. I'm new. I figure that this is as good of a subject to chime in as any.
You probably could consider me an older fan. I was born in 1981 and I can still remember receiving a straight arm Breaker for Christmas (I still have him... thumbs and all!). But I didn't really connect with the series until after the 1986 line came out. We didn't have a lot of money, therefore there weren't a lot of Joes. I have no real opinion on the looks of Major Bludd because my MB looked liked Darth Vader (ah... the universal villian).
The GI Joe of the 1990s and even some of the newer stuff (VvV and whatnot) never inspired me to buy GI Joe. The poorly painted reissues at Toys R Us seemed like a cheap immitation of my childhood. I think they were hoping that nostalgia would loosen my money from my wallet. But I was really excited when I saw the original 25th anniversary box sets. It looked like they actually made an effort to do something new.
All of this said, I will admit that the line is far from perfect. I would love it if the elbows bent at 90 degrees. I wish they would stop giving Joes weapons from WWII (German weapons at that!). But when I look on the shelf I have to smile because it brings back memories of me and my brother playing in the back yard. It reminds me when I got Hawk stuck in the tree with my brand new parachute set. It reminded me that "knowing is half the battle" never really helped me with that nose bleed.
Breaker doesn't have a beard and has Duke's sleeves. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't take anything away from that Christmas so many years ago. It's an all new toy from a re-imagined line... and that's alright with me.
... but don't get me started with Hawk being paralyzed in the comic book. grr...
As for the new guys, I enjoy your company. I have seen a number of kids that have only known Sigma 6 pick up the 25th anniversay figures... which is pretty cool. I know a couple of guys that are planning to buy some extra TF Flints so that Rock'n'Roll and Breaker can have short sleeves. I can't wait to see how they turn out.
The point that I think I was trying to get to (and I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes) is that these toys sparks a little bit of imagination in everyone. I don't think that age should even be in consideration because we all share a love for GI Joe.
You mention Major Bludd significantly, but you don't understand WHY people are complaining about the figure. It has nothing to do with "newbies vs geezers" (or however you wanna term it). It is about lackluster quality in a product a company wants us to purchase.You yourself mentioned you like "well-articulated figures"....yet you don't see what is wrong with the Bludd figure? I do not believe there is a single person anywhere that likes Bludd's arm the way it is. Anyone even remotely familiar with the 25h line knows the figures are intended to be the "most articulated ever". Hasbro hyped that up a lot. THAT is what we complain about.
I'll agree with you on Bludd's lack of articulation, but I was referring to his head sculpt.
I hear some fans say he "doesn't look right," but since I have no pre-existing idea of who Major Bludd is, I can't say "Yeah, that's wrong." I guess that was the point of my original question, "Do older fans get annoyed when a figure comes out that doesn't live up to their expectations (Bludd) or they feel has been done to death (Snake Eyes) and newer fans can't see where the gripes are coming from?"
I can understand that. Being an "old fan", I guess, since I grew up with RAH, I can't help but think that it was nice when almost EVERY FIGURE was a completely new sculpt. Mind you, I'm not talking about the initial 13, of course, but once the line started going it was a very rare exception to the rule, usually only mail-ins or certain vehicle drivers. I miss those days... the 25th figures are nice but because of all the reused parts (not to mention entire figures) it seems to lack the same amount of effort that was put into RAH.
Meh, sign of the times, I guess. Plastic IS more expensive, after all...
Back then it would have been cheap of Hasbro to just repaint parts beyond the original 13 for most of the line. Look at the 25th ann line though. Now they have the removable webbing/straps/bullets/etc. and they can switch alot of the holsters and things like that. It really makes alot of the figures look different and unique that way even though the bodies underneath are the same. Look back at the RAH line and imagine the parts without all of that on them, stripped down. Alot of figures would have had very close outfits that could have been shared. If the stuff was still sculpted on I would really be against them reusing parts.
I really have no problem with someone like Snow Job and Wild Weasel having the same body, enough was changed to make them look different. The same with the Dreadnoks and Gung-Ho. I just wish they would mix parts from multiple figures more and not use whole figures so much like Zartan/Blood. If Zartan had some removable things that could have been replaced with Bludd's own then the figure would have been alot better.
The same amount of plastic is being used it's just they are not making as many new sculpts. I bet as the line goes on they will make alot more new parts and even go back and use some better ones to remake figures we are getting now better.
Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with it if they did it well. If they had done Flint using Duke's legs and torso, that would have been fine, but they shouldn't have shared the arms. The TF Flint looks perfect.
None of the original 13 should have had Duke's arms either, because the cuff on Duke's original figure was so distinctive. Only a few figures looked like that original - off the top of my head I can only think of Duke, Doc and Hit and Run. Of course this is aside the fact that they have limited articulation... Zartan/Bludd is the worst example.
Anyway, I hope you're right on your last point.
That's what they did with TF Flint. Once they had better arms, he got them. Now they can redo anyone who could use those arms instead of Duke's. Getting non-gloved hands should be easy. Rock & Roll would have been perfect with the TF Flint arms and non-gloved hands.
Yeah, well, like I said - I hope so!
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